A long time ago a normal mortal could buy rocket grade peroxide. Then someone crashed their rocket pack and sued the peroxide supplier.They won and the supplier lost more on that suit than they had erver made on the small rocket grade perxode sales. So they did the smart thing and stopped selling rocket grade peroxide to anyone that did not have a government contract.
Three or four months ago I was very worried about peroxide availibility as peroxide propulsion was not running and xlspace systems had stopped producing. So I set about to refine my own. Stabilized 50% hydrogen peroxide is a widely used industrial chemical, and seemed to be generally availible. I consulted with an expert that had been in the usiness of refining rocket grade perixude and decided to follow his reccomended process.
I got a sample 55 gal drum of 50% food grade from the local chemical supplier and built the plant to do the process. If you can get 70% semiconductor grade you cut out two steps from the process. There are only two chemical suppliers doing bulk proixde distribution in the U.S. One got burned as described above and will not sell to anyone that is doing “rocketry”. the other suppleir does not produce rocket grade peroxide, they do produce 70% semi. so we started the process of having them review our facility and procedures so they would sell us 70%, rather than the commonly availible 50%. After a number of weeks and many exchanges we got the following response:
Our review involved the technical aspects of your work, product stewardship, regulatory affairs, and a legal & liability review.Everyone was impressed with your facility and apparent knowledge of hydrogen peroxide handling.
We have made the decision not to supply Unreasonable Rocket directly or through distribution. Our decision was really made based on our perceived risk of exposure for a very small volume of business. We will also communicate this to XXXXXX(the distributor we were buying 50% food grade from.)
We wish you well in your future endeavors and look forward to reading about your successes.
So if I had hidden what I do, or been dishonest about where the peroxide was going I could have continued to buy the 50% food grade. Now niether peroxide supplier will knowling sell even the 50% food grade if it is going to Unreasonable Rocket. I know of others using peroxide for rockets that have set up shell companies “bozos chemical safety systems” or the like, buy peroxide under an assumed use and then refine for their rocket belts, drag cars or whatever. Others have “friend companies” buy it for them etc.. My personal business ethics don’t feel comfortable with that. As a result of being honest and upfront about what I’m doing the door is closed.
No discussion of what insurance do you carry, what sort of liability release will you sign etc… Just no. People should be allowed to take risks. My familiy knows that if something happend to me it was my choice. They also know how strongly I feel that lawsuit lottery is destroying the fabric of what made the USA great. Americans were once risk takers.
What we are doing is far enough outside the normal industrial processes that any one doing business with us is not following their carefully coregraphed ISO9000 script. As a result the system is not perfect. That is why when I get a valve that supposed to have compatible materials in it I TEST IT. If I asked for viton and they sent buna-n then they screwed up, in the normal events that sort of screw up would cause a leak. With 90% peroxide it could cause an explosion. This is my responsiility, a larger organization would have a detailed incomming inspection for anything that critical, I don’t so its my responsibility. Its why we test things at FAR were we have a bunker to hide in. Its whey we presurize and fly the vehicle remotely, its why we make people at FAR seek shelter in the viewing bunker when we are trying something untested. What we do is risky, but we try not to take stupid risks. When I started going to FAR I looked around and saw a bunch of 40+ year old guys that normally drive a desk out in the hot desert sun doing hard physical lablor. One of my very first donations to the place was an AED automatic defibulator and a breathing oxygen bottle. At the time it was the largest check I had yet written for my new rocketry hobby.
If I screw up amd blow my self up, it was my choice to take the risk, its not the fault of whatever other things happened in the chain of cauasality, I knowlingly put myself in that position.
Damm the lawyers.
BTW we flew the blue ball tethered in high winds today and got mixed results, no damage, but control problems in the winds. more later.
117 comments:
Hear Hear. You are absolutely correct - your talking the responsibility and the acceptable risk so there should not be an issue. They should still sell the more common 50% grade to you as its not their problem you are refining it further. Anyway, you did not indicate your options - maybe a good idea. Any way, hopefully you can sort out some avenue. If not consider going back to the bi-prop LOX/Alcohol combo? Big move but at least you have the experience so it would not take long to add a tank and one of the older engines you might have around the shop. Wish you well.
Being honest is one thing. Saying too much is another. I sometimes will over-disclose trivia that I find the audience is incapable of understanding, so they get that "look" in their eyes and wander off. Be brief, disclose only the minimum requirement, and pray often. Less is more, and this is still ethical and honest.
I would agree with the previous post of too much information. By providing ALL the information, as far a legal issues you have now put the seller in a position of making a conscious decision as to whether or not further refinement is "safe".
The immediate reaction to my statement will make a lot of people say "no way!", but lets look at it from a different angle and not make it specifically about you. A fictitious Bob and his son do the exact same thing. Bob and son blow themselves up, along with one or two other people. Bob and son know its their fault, and if they were still alive, would not take action.
But, Bob has a brother Joe he hasn't seen in a decade and is on welfare. Smelling money, Joe sues the seller. The families of the other two people sue the seller as well, maybe because they think there was negligence.
In court, the seller's defense is that they knew what was going on, but that Bob took full responsibility. The prosecutor's case is that the seller reviewed the processes, and the specific action of selling the materials with full knowledge of the process means they are culpable. Otherwise the only other possibility is that they reviewed the process and deemed it unsafe, but sold to Bob anyway. This didn't go over well with the tobacco companies.
Ethics have nothing to do with this. If you purchase a product you should be able to do what you want. But don't put the seller, employees and their families at financial risk by forcing them to analyze data they probably don't care about, with legal consequences. The supplier that went out of business is proof that there is risk.
I'm not sure what it cost them to review all this and come to a decision, but I would give them credit for doing so. The had very little to gain as far as a business decision goes, and a lot to lose if things went wrong.
Although the lawyers share the blame here, so too do those who contact them to file frivolous lawsuits.
There are many ways to look at this, its just my opinion.
"Although the lawyers share the blame here, so too do those who contact them to file frivolous lawsuits. "
They only do that because it sometimes pays off to spill coffee on yourself and sue McDonald's :(
That and your waist sizes are probably the things we Europeans find most incomprehensible and scary at the same time ;)
Good luck with plan b!
I think the key here is whether a waiver could be signed to remove all possible avenues of (legal) risk from the provider of the peroxide. The problem is it only get tested when legal action occurs which is what is trying to be avoided in the first place. Might be best to import the product but then I would imagine there would be other cans-of-worms in that arena as well. The lawyers are the core issue as their professions actions has resulted in the dilution of the concept of personal responsibility. Maybe time to import the lower grade peroxide but this may open another can-of-worms. Good luck.
Paul,
Don't blame the lawyers. That is like blaming a boxer's opponent for giving him a concussion. The lawyers are playing by the rules, the rules are made by politicians that get elected by us.
If we got fooled by a slick ad into voting for some bullshitter who took money from the trial lawyers and the insurance lobby in order to maintain the profitable status quo, the fault is our own.
Steve
Stevo is wrong, because lawers are not disinterested tools. They are paid percentage of settlements, and that is why they have set up a machine of wealth transfer, fueled by the frivoulous lawsuts. Lawers are directly culpable in manufacturing the current legal climate.
In any case I would request a quote from XLspace before I started cooking my own peroxide.
Speaking as a lawyer, yep, damn the lawyers. The notion of individual responsibility is dead among lawyers.
Waivers aren't good enough because most states let you get around them or else, by law, invalidate them. Waivers also don't apply to third parties.
And those commenters who say the peroxide supplier hurt themselves by investigating your process are correct.
-Adam Greenwood
Agreed. The lawyers are complicit in the creation of the sue first culture we live in. Nevermind the fact that most of the politicians that make the rules are lawyers themselves.
The solution requires President Obama to immediately appoint a rocket Czar answering only to him in the White House and maybe the SFF as well. Then Unreasonable Rockets gets federal funding for an "approved" peroxide lab and that then allows Obama to be the new CEO of the company as Frank et al nationalize Unreasonable Rockets because you work in the garage that is connected to or associated with your house. While you may get fired, if you sign on to this plan early on with praise and awe, you will be allowed a minor role serving the new CEO. Now that proper management has been installed, no company would dare not sell their product (peroxide) under fear of all sorts of retribution from name calling to everything else you can imagine. This is the solution. Paul, this might be hard for you to take at first but this is the new path awaiting for you and ultimate success. Think about it before going ballistic or postal. I'm sure that with at least 24 hours of thought, you will see the wisdom of such a program.
For the position of rocket Czar, there should be plenty of space enthusiasts from Gen Y, maybe around 20-22 years of age. Experience is not a requirement for a Czar position. Remember that. The only thing a Czar needs to know is the email address, phone number, and physical address of who he/she is supposed to say yes to on a daily basis. Its really simple. An easier way to earning big bucks has not yet been created.
Best of luck.
"We will also communicate this to XXXXXX(the distributor we were buying 50% food grade from.)"
Frankly, I wonder if you could sue them for doing this. I wonder if it constitutes a breech of confidentiality or a conspiracy.
You're right. Damn the lawyers and the companies who won't sell you something, even with a waiver. Ridiculous. The same thing is, most Americans don't have a clue about how frivolous lawsuits have hurt us.
Off topic but correcting the record: Peter Lund brings up the old McDonald's coffee suit. The reality is that the plaintiff was a very old lady, the McDonald's coffee was significantly hotter than that dispensed by other drive throughs as determined by actual testing, she sustained major scalds that required skin grafts and, if I recall correctly, the lid was not applied fully and came off as she took the coffee from the attendant. That has also happened to me at McDonald's more than once, but I am very careful to not tip the cup as I take it and check to assure that the lid is fully seated. That is individual responsibility but I can see how the old lady was scalded without being completely negligent on her own part.
The solution requires President Obama to immediately appoint a rocket Czar answering only to him in the White House and maybe the SFF as well.
I nominate Jon Goff.
a Czar? More bureaucracy is not the answer. Just make sure public safety is maintained and allow individuals to risk their own life and limb for science.
With our risk averse culture we are just hobbling ourselves. No more John Waynes, no more so-called crazy people doing "crazy" things to achieve a dream.
It's sad.
Anonymous 12:10,
You couldn't have gotten the Stella Liebeck case more wrong if you had tried. 1. She was in her 70s, that ain't that old Skippy. 2. Her young relative was driving. 3. The cap was on tight, #2 stopped to allow her to add sugar and cream, she attempted to hold the cup between her sweat-panted knees and it slipped. 4. The coffee was no hotter than other establishments, and when MickeyD's later lowered the temp they lost business to other establishments who sold hotter coffee.
I suggest you wander over to
http://overlawyered.com/2005/10/urban-legends-and-stella-liebeck-and-the-mcdonalds-coffee-case/
and get your "correction" corrected.
Soon after the McDonald's verdict the Wall Street Journal ran a good article on why McDonald's lost, and the gist of it was that their lawyer was obnoxious and antagonized the jury. Sometimes it's not about the facts.
I guess you might already know, but wikipedia mentions some different manufacturers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_test_peroxide
Solvay Inerox,
FMC,
Degussa and
Peroxide Propulsion.
They left off XL space systems, now back in production.
I've been using peroxide propulsion peroxide.
Only two of the others have a US presence for peroxide.
Paul,
Good to see there are still quite a few options to continue down this path. I was getting worried for you as all of the peroxide based teams have not progressed past the point your at now while the two Lox/Fuel teams have moved a step further. I am hoping this all get sorted for you.
Question: Now the peroxide issue can be worked around; How are you going to remove the Tin contaminant from the peroxide that is fowling the catalyst after a 60 sec run? I would assume further processing by your purifier will do the job for you. I do wonder why it is there in the first place.
Conjecture walks here:
For those saying dont ask, dont tell, unfortunately suppliers read the news and this rocket should be in the news. If they all ban supplies it might ground the project until another engine is designed. Better to know early if you have a sure supply.
Well I answer one thing with a quick google search; e.g., the Tim is a stabilising agent add to high purity peroxides.
If Paul wants to move to a Lox/Fuel engine then I am sure he can do so in a very rapid fashion. Experience exists already. Just be easier if it did not need to occur. Also, retains current value in the existing investment in gear and processes. Any way, time will tell the story as I am sure Paul has considered all the options.
More news on this front in the next 72 hours.
Paul
"I feel that lawsuit lottery is destroying the fabric of what made the USA great. Americans were once risk takers."
Hear, hear! The U.S. system for damage payments in lawsuits is perversely broken.
On a different note, I see a summary of the LLC 2009 rules have been posted at http://space.xprize.org/lunar-lander-challenge. If I read right, it looks like teams can fly basically at their convenience (up to arranging to have judges present) between July 20 and October 31. Looks pretty reasonable. Hopefully we'll see some successful flights this summer!
The real problem is there isn't a substantial risk to the sue-er in frivolous lawsuits. In a system where the loser of the suit is forced to pay the winner's legal fees, there is a really strong incentive to *not* go to court in the first place, on the chance that you'll lose.
The current american legal system often causes the winner to pay the legal fees for his own defence; so even if you win, you can be put out of business. This is what puts defendants at such a disadvantage when it comes to ridiculous lawsuits, and is heavily responsible for the litigious legal climate we're in right now.
HI,
Nice information posted here about business ethic...Thanks for posting this blog....
yes really great info, it motivates me to do something extra ordinary.. Thanks for explaining all that. I was wondering.
Hi, I really liked your post, the information has helped me to make some personal projects, thanks for sharing this information.
Wow! Its looking awesome.... Really its an interesting informative blog post here.... Keep posting such an amazing blog post.
Hello,
Really this is an awesome blog post found here.... keep posting such an interesting information. Thanks!
Hello,
This is really an amazing blog post found here.... Very interesting. Thanks very much for the share....
It is better to deal with this subject like you did instead of beating around the bush. I always like direct articles. Good job dude
Please one more post about that.I wonder how you got so good. This is really a fascinating blog, lots of stuff that I can get into. One thing I just want to say is that your Blog is so perfect
Wow.. that was really neat way of putting Buy Toprol Online. Excellent!! My compliments. Always wondered as to how this would really be. You have really put across the point so well that you have made number of things quite clear. Of course will have to go through it properly a couple of times to actually gauge, but as of now I totally agree with your sentiment.
Thank you for sharing to us.there are many person searching about that now they will find enough resources by your post.I would like to join your blog anyway so please continue sharing with us
I really admire this, I mean it really looks interesting! Very nice write up. Anyways, its a Great post.
Hello,
This is an amazing blog post. Thanks for the share.... Keep posting... Thanks!
Hello,
This is an amazing blog post. Thanks for the share.... Keep posting... Thanks!
this post really very good and effective for me thanks for sharing this nice post
Thanks for sharing your thoughts about business ethics. Was very interesting to read about.
So far thousands if not hundreds of thousand Singaporean had complained about housing policy and instead review his own policy, he is pointing the 'GUN' to WP as irresponsible. I think Mr Mah should have a self-reflection and not living in his own world.
Hmm! Sounds like very interesting i like this blog post. Keep it up and share this type of stuff with us.
Search Engine Optimization Firm
Amazing blog. i am so excited to visit your blog. thanks for sharing with us.
Thanks to a brilliant effort in publishing your article. One can be more informative as this. There are many things I can know only after reading your wonderful article.
Predatory lending is also a threat to deal with now a days. I am happy you wrote something worth reading about foreclosures. Foreclosure freeze for a wrongful foreclosure is a must. Lenders should explain terms and conditions in a simple manner to home owners. This would certainly decrease the amount and help stop foreclosure fraud.
If you need more traffic to your website check out the website in my name. It really helped me and i think it can help your website.
This can't have effect in reality, that's what I think.
Paul, thanks for bringing this up. It's a great help knowing something that not everyone knows.
PAUL
I read your article and I find it very interesting and useful. As we all know, hydrogen peroxide when ingested, accidentally or not could be fatal to the lives of other people. Thank you for posting this for everyone to know.
trilastin sr reviews
This will not succeed in fact, that's what I suppose.
Nice info and articles .Thank you.
Hello Paul.
That's what commercialism can do.
This is really good article very useful an informative.Thank you for sharing this wonderful post.
locksmith parramatta
Hello Paul. Peroxide is both a useful and harmful substance if not handled properly. Maybe lawyers just want to protect the safety of the public. Thanks for this.
Hi. I;m happy that lawyers and businessmen are doing their responsibilities well. Great post.
I was really hesitant to check your article the first time I saw the layout of your blog. But I was very surprised by the messages you have written. That's exactly what I was looking for. I learned a lot about it. It is very creative and unique.
Brochure Design
nice to share my love is wonderful to tell you that a healthy green gives you the best Organic vitamins, herbal remedies and organic supplements.
They use all natural ingredients to create organic products.
Thanks for your marvelous posting! I actually enjoyed reading it, you will be a great author.I will ensure that I bookmark your blog and will come back in the foreseeable future. I want to encourage that you continue your great job, have a nice weekend!think you’ve made some truly interesting points
Trey Smith Blog
Hi author, I like this post. I want to more information about this topic and now, I got all information by your post. Everything define in this post is awesome. I think you should make more post which helps us.
Hi author, The following tips tips are fantastic. Which i enjoy brainstorming about catchy subject lines. Often it can be challenging, but we need to do might know about want to do – please our readers!
astoria restaurant
Hello Paul! I think the lawyers are only doing their job and the judge gives sentences according to the evidences.
Beautifully expressed article, i really enjoyed my stay on this plus wonderful website
Nice to be visiting your blog again, it has been months for me.
Well this article that I've been waited for so long.
wholesale curcumin
Led Flashlight
Wedding Cars Sydney
Hi Paul. I'm glad that you took the time on writing something about this. Let's face it. There are really some lawyers who are abusing their ability. They thought they can get all that they want.
Nice site! I enjoy a couple of from the articles which have been written, and particularly the comments posted! I will definitely be visiting again!
maquinas de bordar
Hi there. I agree with you. Peroxide is harmful to one's health but they should have addressed this problem nicely. But they have other motives.
Effortlessly, the article is really the greatest on this precious subject. I fit in with your decisions and will thirstily appear forward to study your next updates.
Any object that harms people and it's used in commerce must be eliminated by suing the company that sells them.Ion
Effortlessly, the article is really the greatest on this precious subject.
Nice site! I enjoy a couple of from the articles which have been written, and particularly the comments posted! I will definitely be visiting again!
I can definitely agree there are great needs for having or developing organizational, writing, and marketing skills.
Your blog contains highly appreciable content that is very impressive good to visit this link and would
like to visit here again soon. Thanks!
"If you'll not settle for anything less than your best, you will be amazed at what you can accomplish in your lives."
24 hour locksmiths * locksmith washington dc
Oh, so so cute ! It won't work in actual fact, that's exactly what I suppose. Thanks for posting this informative article.
I really love the work that you have been doing as of late, so thank you so much for everything that you have been sharing with us.
reversal of tubal ligation
House and Land Packages Perth
Hi Paul.I admire lawyers who stand by the truth even if it means standing with it alone regardless of who the enemies are.
Awesome article. Thanks for sharing lots of information. Its very helpful to me.
Cool blog you got here. I'd like to read a bit more concerning this topic. Thanks for giving this info.
Wow, nice post,there are many person searching about that now they will find enough resources by your post.Thank you for sharing to us.Please one more post about that..
Inspiring post. I really agree with the facts that you have shared on this post. An interesting topic like this really enhances reader's mind to have more effective decisions over a certain issue. Thank you thank you thank you! I linked you on my blog.
HI Paul. I think Lawyers are only doing their jobs. Peroxide if left unguarded and not put in safer places can endanger the lives of people inhabiting the place.
Hi. I think the title is appropriate. Lawyers can sometimes be abusive especially when money is involved. But there are still some who are doing well.
A great post, thanks for taking the time to share, continued success to your site in the future! GOOD Work!!
There Is Obviously a lot to know about this. I suppose you made Some Great points in the Feature also.
Biotin Hair Growth
These lawyers have their reasons why they fought this case. Peroxide is very dangerous when left unguarded.
fitness centers minnesota
At one point in my life, I wanted to be a lawyer too. Too bad that can't be possible now.
get rid of fruit flies
Hi. This is such a grave misconduct done by lawyers. Well that was just my opinion. I wasn't that sure yet.
cheap business cards
Hi Author. With this post, I still think there are a lot of reliable lawyers out there.
Hi there. I overheard someone on the street too about Lawyers not doing their jobs well.
very nice post I am really enjoyed visiting your blog thanks for sharing…
Hi. I'm sure lawyers have their own knowledge and understanding of the situation. They know what to do.
Great blog to visit lot of quality stuff.
I honestly believe there is a skill to writing articles that only very few posses and honestly you got it. The combining of demonstrative and upper-class content is by all odds super rare with the astronomic amount of blogs on the cyberspace.
These kind of post are always inspiring and I prefer to read quality content so I happy to find many good point here in the post, writing is simply great, thank you for the post.
Thanks for another excellent post. Where else could anybody get that type of info in such a perfect way of writing? I have a presentation next week, and I am on the look for such information. Affordable Logo Design - Cheap Logo Design - Custom Logo Design - Small Business Logo Design
Business ethics is my favourite subject. love to read
Hey great stuff, thank you for sharing this useful information and i will let know my friends as well.
Umm... That's like asking why Coca Cola or Pepsi is still making commercials when their brands are very recognizable.. . .... Because they think that more recognizability will lead to more sales. Which is partially true.
pay per click management company
The following tips are fantastic. Which i enjoy brainstorming about catchy subject lines. Often it can be challenging, but we need to do might know about want to do – please our readers!
Thank you for sharing this great article. Very informative and a lot of useful information you got there. Keep posting please.
I completely agree with the above comment, the internet is with a doubt growing into the most important medium of communication across the globe and its due to sites like this that ideas are spreading so quickly.
I had been trying to find getting published, and located your internet site. Great blog.
I need some information that I have got from this blog. :)
You said the right thing but there is always a risk in business field.
This column reminds me of a continued time ago if in academy we acclimated to accept a accountable (with able lectures - although I don’t bethink about the exams: P) alleged "handwriting improvement". It sounds absolutely a funny but accessible advance now :)
Mirza maqbool | furniture | Best advertising agency in Pakistan
I wanted to thank you for this great read!! I definitely enjoyed every little bit of it, I have you bookmarked to check out all the new stuff you post.I am a china tour lover,You can learn more: China tourism | China tour packages | China Asia tours
I'm still learning from you, but I'm trying to achieve my goals. I certainly enjoy reading all that is posted on your blog.Keep the information coming. I loved it!
Awesome blog post, numerous high-quality data. I am going to show my friends and ask them the things they think.
I wanted to thank you for this great read!! I definitely enjoying every little bit of it I have you bookmarked to check out new stuff you post
Anni is Bangalore escorts services in India, top leading cheap Bangalore escorts services provider in India offers decent and reliable service 24/7.
This is what i have been looking for, i need this information for my projects Dress Wanita Murah. Million Thanks to you for this information, i'll bookmark your site and share this post to my friends.
This one looks so great!!!
Save more than 50% of your monthly phone bills by switching to business VoIP systems from Menetalk.
We are the best business voip providers uk
This one is a good read!!!
We are the top Digital Marketing Agency Norwich,UK
replica bags seoul Extra resources u4d22s6m56 replica bags in london blog link s0n59v2b45 designer replica luggage replica bags online pakistan replica bags in delhi hermes replica g7e73u2n50 replica bags from turkey
It was a nice experience to prepare from Free SAA-C03 dumps pdf 2022. I downloaded this short guide free of cost from Predumps. It was easier to study from the questions and answers series in this PDF file. Free SAA-C03 dumps material is my permanent recommendation for all candidates.
very nice post!!
Extra Super M Force(Men ED Medicine)
Post a Comment